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My wife pointed out something interesting to think about. That Moses had the people wander in the wilderness for 40 years until they were ready to form a community. It worked, they formed a very successful community that way. The problem of course, is it isn't easy convincing people to wander in the wilderness for 40 years. Pretty much impossible.
I'd say it isn't necessary though. What the people need, is they need to believe. Not just say "I believe", but they actually need to truly believe. Just for clarification, I'm not talking believe in God, but rather belief in the system of society.
Christians go around telling people that all they have to do is believe in his name and have faith, but in reality none of them truly believe or have any faith. They don't know what faith is, and that is why they seem so brain washed to other people.
Faith, whether it is in a form of society, or in God, or in anything, only comes from "seeing". I put seeing in quotes, because it also means understanding.
If I tell you that I have a new idea for a rear view mirror ornament that'll cause your care to get twice as good of gas mileage, would you believe me? If I told you that you have to have "faith" in it to make it work, would you believe me? Of course not, and even if you did say you believe me, I don't believe that you believe me. If you say you believe me, I'd say you are lying to me, and maybe even lying to yourself.
Now, suppose we hang that rear view mirror ornament on your mirror and test it out. Suppose it really works, and your car does get twice as good of gas mileage. Now do you believe me? Not likely. I'm thinking it'll take quite a while before you really start to truly believe that it works. Probably several months, maybe even several years. Eventually, seeing will lead you to believing.
If people do not believe in the system of society, they won't work. If they don't work, society doesn't function, and they prove to themselves what they want to believe. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
So the question is, how do we get people to truly believe in the form of society? Sure, having a working prototype will make a huge difference, but what else can we do to help?
Tony
I'd say it isn't necessary though. What the people need, is they need to believe. Not just say "I believe", but they actually need to truly believe. Just for clarification, I'm not talking believe in God, but rather belief in the system of society.
Christians go around telling people that all they have to do is believe in his name and have faith, but in reality none of them truly believe or have any faith. They don't know what faith is, and that is why they seem so brain washed to other people.
Faith, whether it is in a form of society, or in God, or in anything, only comes from "seeing". I put seeing in quotes, because it also means understanding.
If I tell you that I have a new idea for a rear view mirror ornament that'll cause your care to get twice as good of gas mileage, would you believe me? If I told you that you have to have "faith" in it to make it work, would you believe me? Of course not, and even if you did say you believe me, I don't believe that you believe me. If you say you believe me, I'd say you are lying to me, and maybe even lying to yourself.
Now, suppose we hang that rear view mirror ornament on your mirror and test it out. Suppose it really works, and your car does get twice as good of gas mileage. Now do you believe me? Not likely. I'm thinking it'll take quite a while before you really start to truly believe that it works. Probably several months, maybe even several years. Eventually, seeing will lead you to believing.
If people do not believe in the system of society, they won't work. If they don't work, society doesn't function, and they prove to themselves what they want to believe. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.
So the question is, how do we get people to truly believe in the form of society? Sure, having a working prototype will make a huge difference, but what else can we do to help?
Tony
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Ukraine
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Re: 40 years
Thu, January 22, 2009 - 7:13 AMah, the marketing problem.
Personally, I've started a couple of small groups by renting a large house or apartment and filling it with like-minded people. Without too much drama the groups have lasted two to three years. My experience was that it is was a fair amount of work, and we had modest success in reaching our goals. One of the folks we met in 1994 in Boston is still living with us today in California, a couple are part of our 'extended community.'
We finally joined an existing group that had been around for ... 40 years.
40 years and 6 months now ...
Its not perfect, but its better than anything else we've done or tried.
So we've done both - 'we can make it work if you believe and help' and 'this prototype works, lets do that''. Working prototype was easier.
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Re: 40 years
Sat, January 31, 2009 - 9:09 AMThe community that I bought into has been active for 30 years.
Me? I'm the first of the new generation (their founder died, I was invited to purchase her house). I hope to learn a lot about how they've made it last.
A lack of doctrine has helped... as has managing to stay social (gathering for holidays, open invitations)... but I also notice that allowing members to come and go (concrete established protocal and rules for reselling their homes, etc) has helped tremendously to sustain this community.
People won't fit. People will want to live elsewhere. Establish a way that they can enter and leave the community safely both socially and economically, and (paradoxically?) people seem much more ready and willing to commit.
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Re: 40 years
Tue, February 3, 2009 - 11:20 AM>Moses had the people wander in the wilderness for 40 years
this is a symbol, no one could have been lost in that desert for 40 years, is too small
tribes.tribe.net/godcode/t...26859acf45
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Re: 40 years
Thu, February 5, 2009 - 12:03 AMIt wasn't a desert at the time. The people were much more primitive than they are today. It was only 10,000 years ago that man learned to farm, and before that they were hunter gatherers, very small communities. Not much more advanced than chimpanzees.
After man learned to farm, the population began to rise. It would be several thousand years till there was enough population for proto-nations to start to form. Several thousand years before enough technology to make metal objects. So I'm not sure if that was bronze age or early iron age or even late stone age when they were wondering in the wilderness. I imagine probably late bronze age or early iron age.
The people at that time would've had not so much difficulty wandering in the wilderness. There was lots of land around. World population wasn't that high. The land was quite fertile.
Yes it is symbolic, but that doesn't mean it didn't also happen.
Tony -
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one of those (annoying) internet sidebar digressions
Thu, February 5, 2009 - 6:49 AMnah, they weren't more primitive .....
fwiw, here are the dates given by WIkipedia - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mose...the_Exodus
The Bible gives a date for the Exodus of c 1450 BC based on it being 480 years before the building of the temple in the 4th year of the reign of King Solomon and 430 years after the first arrival of Abraham in Egypt. Conjectures about the Exodus having taken place at other times are generally intended to demonstrate its agreement with other historic sources, archaeology, textual artifacts such as the form of contracts and the price of slaves, the geopolitical context, Egyptian campaign accounts and various king lists. Suggested dates range from 1450 to 1208 BC in the Eighteenth dynasty of Egypt and the Nineteenth dynasty of Egypt.
While some of their technology was more primitive, there is no reason to believe that we are any smarter, or they any stupider than we - we are just more edjumakated [educated] than they - as a reference point the Great Pyramid at Giza was over ***a thousand years old*** when the Jews left Egypt. [wikipedia says the pyramid was completed circa 2560 BC]
I'm in the "its a metaphor" camp.
My ancient history prof. used to say there is no evidence that humans have grown any smarter over the last 10,000 years. -
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Re: one of those (annoying) internet sidebar digressions
Thu, February 5, 2009 - 8:17 AM<snip>
My ancient history prof. used to say there is no evidence that humans have grown any smarter over the last 10,000 years.
</snip>
lol... a quite a metric asston of proof that humans, although maybe no smarter, are FAR more ignorant of things that would make life possible now that just a hundred years ago, much less a thousand (give er take a few).
Some points to ponder:
1.) We have far more pseudo-mandatory formal schooling that was done a thousand years ago. This doesn't make us as a whole smarter per se, it just capitalizes on the innate ability of humans to learn.
2.) We have included in all ways mentally deficient humans into our society. This doesn't make us as a whole dumber per se, it just reduces our average intelligence with for instance, Down's Syndrome people.
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Re: one of those (annoying) internet sidebar digressions
Thu, February 5, 2009 - 9:44 AM1450 BC, that puts it in the Late Bronze Age (1550–1200 BC)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_age
'Course not everyone knew how to make stuff out of bronze even at that time. It is possible that since they were slaves before then, that they had no ability to make things out of bronze. So maybe they could make things out of pottery, but since everything in the area has since been ground into sand by the desert, it is not likely they'll ever find a trace of their existence.
Tony -
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Re: one of those (annoying) internet sidebar digressions
Fri, February 6, 2009 - 7:41 AMtony, have you moved into an IC yet? -
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Re: one of those (annoying) internet sidebar digressions
Fri, February 6, 2009 - 9:35 AMNo not yet. Making progress though. Working on starting a worker controlled company.
At the moment I'm working mostly on designing a machine that'll make pretty much anything and only cost about $200 to make (not the first one though). I expect it'll go a long ways towards ending poverty. It'll probably take about a year to make, and once it is done I have a feeling it'll spawn new communities pretty fast.
Tony
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Re: 40 years
Fri, February 6, 2009 - 7:36 AMAhhhh, I believe in belief, it is what creates reality.
